 Posted 6/9/2007 7:02:33 PM
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Chris,
No one is trying to beat someone into submission in order to vote a certain way. You don't know all the facts and neither does wemor. If this was a jury trial and I presented my evidence, I would win. Your lack of evidence and speculation wouldn't even stand up.
I understand your point. I understand Wemors points. (and by the way, that "for me too P00P on thing was a joke). I am not whining about getting 6 votes. MG used to give me only 7's and it was my goal to get her to give me a 9. I worked on improving my photography to that end. Well, no 9 outta her but I got two 8's in one day so I consider that close enough.
I am the kind of person who enjoys honest feedback. It has been the foundation of my life and business for a long, long time. Without honest feedback, no one can correct the course on which they are traveling. I welcome it and appreciate it.
My concern isn't a low score on my photo. I have had other 6's on the same photo and didn't complain about that person. Why, because not everyone ALWAYS votes the same. Only a few people.
They are going to do what they do and I am going to do what I do. I am not trying to change anyone but I do think there is some fishiness about what's going on and I am just not willing to be a part of it. That's my choice and I will survive and my photography will still improve as it has already in a few short months. Thanks to people who give honest feedback, BTW.
In every group there are those that would undermine others to get what they want or to hurt others. That's the human condition. That's not me and that's not my game.
Those people will pay and are already are paying the price for their actions and behaviors. So, in the long run, it won't make a difference to me but it will to them
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Posted 6/9/2007 7:09:01 PM
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Posted 6/10/2007 5:20:20 AM
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eninja2k (6/9/2007)
Chris,
No one is trying to beat someone into submission in order to vote a certain way. You don't know all the facts and neither does wemor. If this was a jury trial and I presented my evidence, I would win. Your lack of evidence and speculation wouldn't even stand up.
Perhaps you didn't understand the point to my post. I don't know the facts and quite frankly don't care. I don't have any evidence nor do I have speculation. If this was a jury trial no one would win. My point was that it is a zero sum game. There can be no winner but there are already losers.
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Posted 6/10/2007 6:46:29 AM
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chrisbnp (6/9/2007)
In any statistical sample there will always be outliers. Any "correction" of the outliers only create more outliers until you finally achieve the status of whipping them into voting with the masses.
This is the part maybe you can explain. If I misunderstood you, I apologize but what it seems to me you are saying is that someone is potentially getting "whipped" into voting with the masses.
All of that assumes that there is no malice in the voting aspects of someones behavior. Lets consider the case where someone votes due to malice. While it's not my style, lets say that someone votes that way to correct the behavior of another.
Let's say we all vote fairly and objectively? Hmm? While sometimes it makes me feel bad to cast a low vote on a photo which I feel needs a lot of improvement, I do it anyway. Why? Because my feelings are subordinate to my willingness to be honest, so that the person receiving the feedback can improve their skills.
First off it is only effective if they are of high weight and they are not concerned for any backlash for their actions. Second, I find it difficult, if not impossible to determine intent from just a vote.
You're right. It's impossible to determine intent from a single vote. In a forensic investigation, they look for as much evidence as possible. One finger print isn't enough to determine intent. But, that along with a lot of other evidence including past, PROVABLE BEHAVIOR of the "suspect, goes towards a case.
Were they to say "here this is because you did X" I might agree but I haven't seen that here. Third, if someone is so invested in a score that a single vote mocks them then perhaps this is not a game they should play. If the goal is to learn there are many examples of fine photography and discussion of technique that do not take place in a competitive environment. In fact, I believe that the best examples of photography as an art and discussions of technique take place in environments where there is no competition.
I don't know about that because I am not involved with any site that there is not some competition involved. However, if your point is, that some people see competition as a threat to their success, they will cheat, lie and steal to get what they want, then welcome to human kind. It's unfortunate but true that there are people like that.
Just take this place for what it is, a resource, not an example of the perfect society nor as an example of the finest art. Take what you can, give what your willing, and leave it at that.
It is not an example of a perfect society since there is no such thing as a perfect society. It IS however, a small sampling of the whole of society, wherein there are good guys, bad guys and indifferent guys (and gals...Don't want to leave you ladies out here). So, maybe your point is that there is nothing that can be done about the dishonest people so, why bother? Well if that's your point, it might be a good one. They will have little to no effect on scores over a long period of time. I believe that. As a matter of fact, today there is evidence of that. And, you assume that I am doing what I am doing for myself. That's an assumption that gets people into trouble all the time. What if?.....What if....I believe that people need to sometimes get a wake up call in order to change so that THEY have a chance to improve? What if what I am doing is not for me but to try to show someone else that their actions will continue to cause them pain?
Regarding your other post about having no winners and all losers. That may be true and I am not sure what you mean but what's REALLY REALLY sad, Chris, is that this web site is set up so that ALL of us CAN BE WINNERS! I can win today, you can win tomorrow, someone else can win the next day. We can all win and I am and have always been for having everyone win. But I cannot control the behaviors of another person. I can only show them how it hurts them and other people. They have to make the choice to change and take different action. It's all a choice! There are no accidental victims here. Only people who make the wrong choices. People do have to take responsibility for their actions. Sometimes they don't realize it. Most of the time they don't because they want to blame others for where they are in life. Its convenient. The last thing human beings want to do is appear fallible. (By the way fallible is an adverb meaning that one has to try/put action behind it. So failing is an action one must take, not a lack of action. It also comes from the latin word which means 'deceive', which sounds like it means lying to ones self). People would rather die than be proved wrong! Isn't that a sad state of affairs! Point being...Some people have disorganized values. To me integrity is near the top of the important ones. My winning an award for my photography is nowhere near the top. So, if I have to make a choice between the two, I will take and fight for integrity any day. I wish I didn't have to choose but for some, winning is so important that they would sabotage the "competition" to do it. And again...sadly this place is designed so that everyone can win given they work hard, improve, learn and teach give and receive. So..It's not a perfect society but it is closer to one than most people will ever get to be a part of since everyone has the chance to be a winner here.
Know what I mean?
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Posted 6/10/2007 6:57:56 AM
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I have to ask you EN...
You say you've been in relationship counseling for nearly 20 yrs.First of all that would mean you were 17 when you first started this profession.Somehow I doubt that counseling a friend at 17 will get you hired if you include it on your resume.
Secondly...if...and that is a big IF you truly are in this profession how many times have you heard from ONE party involved and made a decision on the best way to counsel or help the couple? 
Thirdly... if all that you are claiming is true, then why oh why has admin not stepped in and banned such blatant troublemakers! 
You may respond if you choose, my choice is to walk away and continue to enjoy the forum and site without letting a certain few ruin it for me.
Have a wonderful day.
edit to add a T to the word AT.
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Posted 6/10/2007 7:13:58 AM
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Carol (6/10/2007)
I have to ask you EN...
You say you've been in relationship counseling for nearly 20 yrs.First of all that would mean you were 17 when you first started this profession.Somehow I doubt that counseling a friend at 17 will get you hired if you include it on your resume.
Secondly...if...and that is a big IF you truly are in this profession how many times have you heard from ONE party involved and made a decision on the best way to counsel or help the couple?
Thirdly... if all that you are claiming is true, then why oh why has admin not stepped in and banned such blatant troublemakers!
You may respond if you choose, my choice is to walk away and continue to enjoy the forum and site without letting a certain few ruin it for me.
Have a wonderful day.
edit to add a T to the word AT.
Actually, I will answer. First off...20 years was a round number. It's will be 19 years in November of this year. I was 19 when I took my 90-day leadership training and I happened to be one of the top leaders in the group of 43 people. I was asked by the company to work for them because of my leadership abilities. I was also asked to coach teams on leadership. I use the term relationship coach because although it was called "The leadership program", the way to win become a leader is to become proficient at relationships, creating and building them. Over that 18+ year course of time, I have help thousands of people (2 - 3 groups of 30 to 50 people per month for a 90-day program) to become leaders.
And to answer you question about how often I heard from one person and made a decision...Well, this may be hard for YOU to understand but there is only one person in a relationship. "ME". I am responsible for my relationships. "If it's to be, it's up to me." Now of course if there are two people in a relationship I work with them both to take that approach. Hope that answers your question.
Now, if you are referring to me only hearing one side of the story because I didn't hear YOUR side...Feel free to PM me. I have been getting a lot of PMs the last few days and I would love to hear your side of the story. Although that would have been possible at any time if you had commented on any of my images that you voted below the average vote on. So, once again the issue of responsibility comes up. If you think you are being victimized, stand up and be heard instead of hiding in the shadows.
But, I want to thank you for once again ATTEMPTING to humiliate me in public to prove you are "right". That's a GREAT way to build a relationship.......
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FOR ME TO P00P ON! 
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Posted 6/10/2007 7:28:17 AM
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You are quite the leader 
As far as me being a victim? lmao... no...I don't feel victimized. I do however feel sorry for you.You are being baited into a long ended battle and made the scape goat.That is why YOUR voice and only your voice continues to ring loud and clear in this thread while the certain others send pm back and forth feeding you bits of tainted information.
I remained quiet for months, not in hiding but to prove that I don't need to shout to defend myself.My quiet actions and consistent voting pattern has proven who I really am.I don't need to pm you 'my side'... because for me it ended a long time ago.
I made it a personal policy that if the same person asks me for a comment on every single vote I give them that falls below a 7 that I will not reply.
I do reply to those who include a question with a request and/or if the vote is a 5 or below.
My voting scale is not yours...or anyone's...it is mine.
If I were to vote your images on the same scale as someone else then that would mean I am bending and being forced to follow.I won't.I will vote as I see...not as someone else see's.
IMO a 6 is above average.It means a person has room to grow....and needs to grow.If I rated all images higher then where is the incentive to learn and grow?
I am sorry that you are offended by a 6.I am not.I used to be, but I learned that a 6 doesn't mean I suck, it means someone see's something but that I have room to improve.
Do I care if I get awards? No, not really.I am an artist, I create to see the emotion my creation brings to people.That is what I get out of photography...
It's a shame that so many here are creating soley for the sake of winning, because in the end you truly are losers.
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Posted 6/10/2007 7:44:36 AM
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eninja2k (6/9/2007)
There are a HANDFUL of people who notice THESE PARTICULAR people vote the same vote a lot and THOSE people say THOSE votes are BELOW average. Could not someone voting on a lower scale also be interpreted as possessing higher (photographic) standards or holding a greater expectation for excellence? I know I use a majority of sixes because I want my higher votes to have more impact and show greater recognition for the better posts I see. Doesn't matter what you think. Maybe not to you... It does to me! Fact, is many people and that included photographers way better than myself are having the same issue with these people. Do you think I could not site multiple examples of where I disagreed with a rating for most any voter on the site? And, I happen to know it is personal. Is that what you KNOW or is it what you have been told? You are speculating...I know for a FACT they have something personal against some people here. I also know that they have done other unethical and inappropriate things for a FACT! Do you think you are enlightening me? I signed on at Daily Awards one year to the day before you did. I have personally witnessed a lot more water flow under the bridge here than you. You are either ethical or you are not. Most people don't float in between. So, think what you like. Spout your opinion as much as you like. When the truth comes out... I would imagine there would be no "CLEAN HANDS" to be found. ...there will be one of us who was making things up and one who knew what was really going on. HERE I AGREE! WE
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Posted 6/10/2007 7:58:37 AM
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No one has baited me, dear.
As far as YOUR side of the story vs. someone else...That someone else is me. I am talking from personal experience. While, yes I have had several people PM me about your exploits and some of the "unethical" things you do and have done, I don't feel the need to make them public. Let's put it this way...There are people on this site that have seen evidence without my provocation that have written me to tell me that they support me in what I am talking about. I am sure there are a large majority of people who don't and that's fair. Those people probably haven't seen this stuff or don't know about this stuff. I don't care whether people support me or not. This is an issue I personally have chosen bring up because it effect me and others. You see, one of the distinctions of leadership is, being willing to take a stand to defend what you think is just, regardless of popular public opinion. I think of people like JFK, Martin Luther King, John Lennon to name a few. Like those people, there are some who would not agree with me and may even hate me. The fact is, I, like those people, am standing up for what I believe is the greater good. Of course I will make enemies but if I do then it comes down to values. Yours are different than mine. While you would love to sit here and ruin people's reputation and make them look bad, I would like to make it so that everyone has a fair chance to make it where they want to be.
Apparently you can't read between the lines but there is room for you to grow as a person. My last post (or the one before I can't remember) I actually said in there somewhere in no certain terms, that I thought this might help YOU. Imagine, someone trying to help someone who has a dislike for them and publicly tries to humiliate them. Let me ask you, what is your definition of leadership?
I don't care about the awards for myself either. That's why I said I wouldn't upload anymore pics here. I do care about those people who come here and never get a chance to improve or shine because there are some people who are terribly selfish and won't answer comments requests because of a "policy". You are not taking from me. I have all I need and want. You are taking from those who need people who have experience to help them.
If it makes you feel any better, I will leave this site permanently and then you can do whatever to whom ever you want. There are people here who will remain in contact with me who I feel are the kind, giving, caring people who I like to surround myself with. The one's who don't do that, I wish them well but I choose not to be in a relationship with them.
The only reason it's my voice that's loud and clear in this thread is because there are some people that would rather not be disliked than to stand up and be stoned by the masses. That's cool. I am not going to try to push anyone to stand up with me here. If want to they will. That's a personal choice too.
My commitment is to the greater good and not to be liked or have a cheer leading section.
But...Talking to you has been a lot of fun....
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For me to P00P on!
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Posted 6/10/2007 9:08:44 AM
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