 Posted 7/15/2008 11:18:56 AM
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Should I shift my voting scale to reflect my like or dislike of the subject of an image, while totally disregarding technical and artistic merits?
The question is rhetorical. Of course I'm not going to do that. But, when I ask voters (mostly low weight, but some medium weight) for suggestions for improvement in an image, about 7 out of 10 say they have no suggestions for improvement, but they did not like the subject. That's not a fair and objective methodology. And, I'm quite certain these voters would not welcome reciprocity from me.
Not sure how we can get people past their myopic approach to judging photography. I'm hoping this forum post will have some influence. It is human nature to prefer some subjects over others. It is the responsibility of the photo contest voter to set aside their biases and prejudices and look at the photo. In related matters, there is far too little consideration of category, too little time taken to view full size images and too little weight placed on degree of difficulty.
Footnote: The one exception to my post would be images which are objectionable or obscene. For those, we do have a report button in the voting window.
 My Top 24
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Posted 7/15/2008 11:28:09 AM
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I totally agree to what you have to say here sir.
A person who loses god loses everything, and a person who gets god gets everything.
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Posted 7/15/2008 12:19:51 PM
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I second what Richard says. It simply comes down to beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. (Or is it beerholder Geoff?) I'm here to learn about the technical aspects of photography. Not to learn where to seek out subjects (or models for that matter) which would appeal to the general public. In the end it comes down to the presentation of whatever you photograph, doesn't it?
I remember one of the POD's on another site being simple washing hung out to dry. The way it was presented was simply awesome. I don't like washing. Should I vote those images down?
JACKY'S PROFILE MY TOP 24 IMAGES 
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Posted 7/15/2008 1:34:55 PM
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Jacky vdM (7/15/2008)
I second what Richard says. It simply comes down to beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. (Or is it beerholder Geoff?) I'm here to learn about the technical aspects of photography. Not to learn where to seek out subjects (or models for that matter) which would appeal to the general public. In the end it comes down to the presentation of whatever you photograph, doesn't it?
I remember one of the POD's on another site being simple washing hung out to dry. The way it was presented was simply awesome. I don't like washing. Should I vote those images down?If I'm not mistaken a large percentage of members here are either amateurs or hobbyist. I consider myself a hobbyist and hope that you wouldn't rely on myself to learn the technical aspects of photography. Personally, I've only noticed a few members here that have the knowledge worth seeking so be selective as to who you learn from (just my opinion ).
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Posted 7/15/2008 2:00:53 PM
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patweeka (7/15/2008)
Personally, I've only noticed a few members here that have the knowledge worth seeking so be selective as to who you learn from (just my opinion ). . A wise man person can learn something from everyone... WE
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Profile - Top 24 - All Images Nikon D70 - Nikon N90 - Nikonus III - Nikkor 20mm - Nikkor 50mm - Nikkor 24-120mm - Nikkor 28-70mm - Nikkor 85mm - Nikkor 70-300mm - Sigma 400mm
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Posted 7/15/2008 2:27:11 PM
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Richard,
Your specific situation aside, since I may well agree with you, but still on topic.
For the rest of you...
Of course it is improper to lower your score based on subject matter but that does not mean we can divorce subject matter as a criteria for voting.
Let me play the devils advocate for a minute or two.
I may not like eggs for instance and someone enters an image of a white egg on a white background. Now I'm sure it would not rate well with me in spite of the fact that it is very sharp, has nice tonal values, casts a well done shadow. It could be a perfect representation of of that egg and I'm sure it would still get no higher than a seven, not because I don't like eggs but because it just plain does not resonate with me, I don't see the difficulty in it, I don't see the artistry, I just see an egg. Were I new to the craft my response to a RFC might be, I can't suggest anything but I just didn't like it. Having a bit more experience I'd probably explain that while it is technically strong the image held nothing to capture my imagination, I felt nothing, and the image told no story.
People will naturally appreciate an image that is compelling because it is not something that they have never seen before or depicts a subject in the context of a broader subject. Take that same egg and stick a hypodermic needle in it and call it "Artificial Insemination" and the scores will rise, light it in such a way that it takes a stand on the subject (however the heck you would do that) and it will rise more. At that point the subject transcends the egg and becomes a metaphor for a larger issue. Now that is compelling photography. Need examples? Glen's "Oh Baby" his annual award winner "Banded Snail" work for me. My daughter on her first visit to DA said "Wow, a snail standing up! That's cool!". I could name twenty more images that fit this category and not all were winners.
I gotta tell you, I often shake my head at some of the images of mine that do well, they leave me somewhat flat as far as creativity goes. They "pass" on technical ability alone while others required me to "stretch " a bit artistically yet they do not score as well. I've come to believe that that if one of my images gets a wide range of scores it is a "win" since some "got" it and others didn't. In those very few images that I took a risk and the majority "got" it I know that I have earned the score. In the case where the consensus over time is that it is not pleasing I know that it was either my vision was wrong or my implementation was flawed, either way it is info I can use.
Of all the feedback I get regarding my scores of an image about 25% comes from those that I rewarded for their risk, the balance come from those that I scored lower than the norm. I can live with my decisions and I hope you will live with my opinion.
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Posted 7/15/2008 3:34:10 PM
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~ (7/15/2008)
Of course it is improper to lower your score based on subject matter but that does not mean we can divorce subject matter as a criteria for voting.
I try to let the photographer know by leaving the comment: "The subject does not appeal to me in any way so I tried my best to only vote on the technical aspects. It was difficult to vote objectively. I hope you understand." It might get a nasty reply in return but I was honest with both myself and the photographer and thats all I can do.
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Posted 7/15/2008 3:34:42 PM
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There are a lot of mean-spirited votes being cast right now. And, the feedback on the images gathering those low votes is....."Didn't like the subject." I simply don't understand this mindset.
I think it's quite a lot more malicious than Chris' egg example. I think we are experience a wave of bigotry, prejudice, jealousy and narrow-mindedness. I don't need to be specific, do I?
Let me just say that I lose all respect for people who are voting down on images for reasons of race, gender, religion, or category. Look, you don't have to like a subject to give it a fair shake in the contest.
One of the reasons marathon voting and speed voting are big negatives is because it runs people up against the buffer in a few short days. Then, in order to keep voting, these obsessive/compulsive voters must vote "all category". And, some people would not give a b&w image (for example) a good score under any conditions. But, under the conditions of being "forced" to vote on foreign subjects in foreign genres, they shoot a low score and respond to RFCs with "lacks interest".
It's not a good thing.
My Top 24
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Posted 7/15/2008 3:56:25 PM
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