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RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Admin — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:38:44 GMT

I'm not sure I follow all of what people are saying here, so I will just state some facts:

- The system will reject a vote for an image if that vote is significantly higher or lower than what seems reasonable based on a significant vote history for that image

- The system will flag a user if that user consistently votes outside of a reasonable range for images

There is no vote manipulation at DA. Once a vote is cast and recorded, that vote is permanent (this is why there are checks before recording a vote). Further, the voting formula is exposed and the system is fully transparent. You can recompute the score of any image with the data provided on the advanced stats page.

Edited to add: The formula
[(sum of votes) + (current vote * current weight)] / (total weights so far + current weight)

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:23:46 GMT

Lord forbid my 7's and 8's start getting kicked back! LOL!

Truth is..If this happens again, (which I hope I don't have

to score anymore images low, for I do hate doing it! ), I will

assume I am not suppose to give a true vote of my own opinion.

And if this becomes or already is the 'norm', I will always

and forever more question the validity of many

votes I, myself, recieve in the future.

I prefer and publically request ALL votes be counted.

I was never one of the 'users' who wanted this

as stated earlier.

Just honest voting..

That's good enough for me.

In the meantime..I will hope it IS only a glitch! :)

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sherry — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:17:27 GMT

Maybe you have to physically TYPE in a comment/suggestion, rather than using one of the canned comments provided (multiple distractions), before the system will accept the "4" vote??!

There has to be a way to test all these theories flying around... but it really does sound like a glitch.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

wemor — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:12:45 GMT

[quote][b]SkyBlueRose (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]For all mine it has been an 8 that the system has rejected and I get the same message the low voters are getting.[/quote]

Check you keys or maybe select another voting method. As it is set up now, the system would not mathematically reject a vote of EIGHT.

Is is possible that you have already voted on this image before? Sometimes when you switch for category to all voting (or vice versa) the voting screen will reselect the original image that you started you session with. Another attempt to vote will cause a message that says you have already voted on this image. Just some ideas to try.

Again, my understanding is that an EIGHT vote would never be rejected. Only LOW votes are checked. WE

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:51:21 GMT

For all mine it has been an 8 that the system has rejected and I get the same message the low voters are getting.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

HappySnaps — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:37:51 GMT

Pet,

You took the words right outta my mouth.:D

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

wemor — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:36:19 GMT

Anyone at the voting buffer would more likely be casting votes within an image's first 15 hits. These will always be accepted because they are used to establish the average.

I agree that if this is used, HIGH outlier votes should be considered under the same criteria as LOW outlier votes. But I do not think ANY check should be applied at all. Still, many users requested it be put in place.

To my knowledge, the system has never rejected HIGH votes at all.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:31:50 GMT

Well..whatever the reasoning behind the dismissal of mine and possibly others votes, (on occasion), should not happen, in my opinion.

I except any and all votes on my images, and am not going to 'argue' with someone over whether their opinion of my image is right or wrong.

I like comments and advice but do not request them because of a particular vote. I think whatever a persons vote is for an image should be valid unless a clear and true motive of deception in voting pattern is established. :)

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:31:18 GMT

Will maybe you are just an expert voter and never give out of range votes or the image in question hasn't received enough votes yet for it to happen. Also as photoart indicated perhaps it is something new.

skybluerose

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:20:25 GMT

Well..I'ma tellin ya...

It didn't take mine..

And the statement telling me I may see it again in a voting

was written directly above the image.

Go figure..

Wil..Maybe the 'system' is used to your 4's...LOL!

I give then rarely..:)

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

LAC — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:19:45 GMT

[quote][b]Petmagnet (2/7/2008)[/b][hr][quote]What was your vote (number) when you got this message? [/quote]

My vote was a 4 and I marked 'multiple distractions'

under comments.[/quote]

Maybe when a vote of under 5 is given, you need to do more than just click on a comment? Don't know......but that could be a reason.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:15:11 GMT

[quote]What was your vote (number) when you got this message? [/quote]

My vote was a 4 and I marked 'multiple distractions'

under comments.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

bhasmang — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:09:14 GMT

The only time my vote got rejected was the first time when I voted on DA, yes the very first vote, and after that as far as my memory goes ...never happened again........

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:05:40 GMT

[quote]Hmmm, interesting. I have not experienced this at all. My voting scale is 2-10, and I have never seen this message on any of my votes.
[/quote]

Today was my first experience of this..

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

LAC — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:49:48 GMT

I've never had a vote of 4 rejected, granted I've not given very many. The ones I did give had the look of a 'snap' (don't want to use the term, photo) taken with a cell phone. Having said that, I'm then amazed that the image was scoring 5+. Only conclusion I can come up with is that 5 is the lowest you can score without an 'explanation'.

I don't believe there's been any 'blackballing' in the voting system...seems more like system-glitches.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:48:56 GMT

This just gives me one more reason not to upload. As long as a voter is taking the time to give an honest evaluation I want them to be able to do that regardless if it is a 4 or an 8. If someone is forced to conform I am not getting a acuate evaluation.

skybluerose

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:45:50 GMT

[quote]No votes are REJECTED in the first 15 votes an image receives. Those first 15 votes are used to establish a general average for comparison. After a rating has been established (15 votes) other votes are compared to that average and EXTREME LOW outlier votes can be rejected. This calculation is not made for HIGH outlier votes. [/quote]

What are the odds that out of the many members here at DA that one of the first 15 voters, would leave a very low score? Most folks do not use the 1-10 scale regularily. Quite a few never give lower than a 5.

This being said, and after 15 votes and a 'standard' rating being applied..Of course, a low vote would look odd. But is that low vote any less reasonable if the voter sees a problem with the image?

And the fact that no high rating votes are excluded from this process puzzles me even more. It all sounds bias in some respects. Like one is saying a typically average image to a majority of viewers couldn't been seen as a worse image from the personal point of view of a minority of people. But it could be seen as a better image.

Maybe, I just don't get it...

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

aurock — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:40:09 GMT

[quote][b]wemor (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]

No votes are REJECTED in the first 15 votes an image receives. Those first 15 votes are used to establish a general average for comparison. After a rating has been established (15 votes) other votes are compared to that average and EXTREME LOW outlier votes can be rejected. This calculation is not made for HIGH outlier votes.

[/quote]

Just curious, what constitutes "EXTREME LOW outlier votes"? :cool: I've had a couple '4' votes rejected and each time I've been stunned that it was considered an out of range vote. I haven't run across all that many 4's (because images of that caliber are archived so quickly and many of us don't ever see them ... due to the 10% of active voters who do 90% of the voting or whatever WE's stat analysis came up with! ;) :w00t: ) When I vote a '4', it's because I've seen serious flaws in the image and I really can't fathom how the image could possibly be rating that much higher that my '4' would be considered an "EXTREME LOW" vote.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:38:20 GMT

Wemor thanks for explaining further. Now I understand why some I am scoring higher than average go through (haven't reached 15) and some don't.

skybluerose

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

wemor — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:38:11 GMT

[quote][b]photoart (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]Sherry,
Yes, the system is discarding votes and will never to allow certain people to vote on other certain people's images. Note that, and let me make this really clear.....I do not know who behind the system is making the decision who can vote for who. I do know that votes are not registering and banning is taking place. Personally, it seems to me that many of the changes being made to DA are only for the worse. I personally feel that DA is becoming the Titanic.[/quote]

Are you making this up? What evidence do you have to make these assumptions? I think you are misunderstanding something here. Please direct us to where you are getting this misinfromation. WE

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:31:44 GMT

Sorry photoart by the time I submitted my question it was already being answered by you. It must not be banning you from all images of that person or even from the image in question since it excepted my 7. If it is true and they want all middle of the road it is crazy to have a 10 point sytem. Here I have been trying to widen my range because of the convincing argument from members saying it should be wide and then the system is telling me I can't?

skybluerose

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

wemor — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:25:26 GMT

[quote][b]Sherry (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]I'd like clarification too! Something doesnt seem right here.

For IE sake I'll use WE :D hope thats ok...:D

If I vote a "4" on WE's image - one that has been receiving 7 & 8+ votes... the system will discard my vote of 4 and I will never be able to vote on WE's images again?????[/quote]

I knew those FOURS were yours!!!!!! :w00t:

REALLY...

My understanding is that the system still test for "OUT-OF-RANGE" LOWER votes. There is an equation that compares a vote given to the other range of votes on the image. If that vote is significantly lower, the vote is rejected.

Personally, I along with others feel that ALL votes should be counted for any image. Others, would like to see the LOW outlier votes discarded. IMO, every vote should count.

Never have I seen any indication that someone would be blocked from voting on anothers images based on a system decision of their voting record. I am only aware of one instance when two voters were blocked from mutually voting on each others images. This was not because of low votes and the decision was made manually after reasearched by site ADMIN.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sherry — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:23:34 GMT

Why have a scale of 1 through 10 .. if the full scale can't be used on ALL images, regardless of WHO the Photographer is?!

A vote of 4 with some comments/critique/suggestions should be A-OK... but it doesnt seem to be, right?

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:19:46 GMT

Well...I haven't been here that often in the past few months..

Decided to give myself a break...

Now I wonder if I came back to soon..

Seems there is always one problem or another..

Folks don't like the votes they get, folks feel

underappreciated for some reason or another...

Folks want to 'know' everyone when it come to the

recieving of votes..

Now the 'system' doesn't like the way folks vote..

What's next?

Admin..Can you clarify why a vote of 4 ,

(given by me), was thrown out?

I don't use them often, but I think I have a right to if the image warrants, in my opinion. (Even if it is an 'odd man out' vote.)

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

HappySnaps — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:18:53 GMT

I have had my votes thrown out before, but to my knowledge this did not ban me from that photographers other images. Not really sure if I even paid attention to the photographers name.

Your experience sounds like a glitch in the system to me.

This also reminds me of how much I dislike the fact that ALL VOTES do not count. I had never thought of it in those terms but, YES! The system IS deciding for us how we can vote.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sherry — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:13:25 GMT

I'd like clarification too! Something doesnt seem right here.

For IE sake I'll use WE :D hope thats ok...:D

If I vote a "4" on WE's image - one that has been receiving 7 & 8+ votes... the system will discard my vote of 4 and I will never be able to vote on WE's images again?????

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:12:14 GMT

Photoart, can you further explain? I'm confused too but interested in what you are trying to say. I'm glad I'm not the only one, when Linda and Sherry said it never happened to them, I feared you would all thing I'm crazy :hehe: Either way my scoring higher or petmagnet scoring lower and getting this message is not right. When you get the message saying it will return later is basically saying change your mind or else. I too have had the same image come up later and then reject your vote again. This last time I gave it a 7 just to see what would happen because if it rejects your vote it doesn't show what the image is averaging. It accepted the 7 and was averaging just below 7. If the owner is controlling this why would they not want an 8? The owner of the image has a weight in the 500's so as a whole they must be getting frequent 8's.

skybluerose

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

wemor — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:06:30 GMT

[quote][b]photoart (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]Petmagnet,
To the best of my knowledge, you will no longer be able to vote on any of that person's images. My guess is, that with this new system, before long very few people will be left voting, only the system's favorites. I believe this change was made about 2 weeks ago. It's a shame that none of these changes are ever announced.[/quote]

PHOTOART - What information are you basing this conclusion on. I have seen nothing about the system design for not accepting votes based on specific users voting habbits. This would not be desirable and is likely a misunderstanding. Please site where you are getting this impression so the confusion may be corrected. WE

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

aurock — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:57:46 GMT

[quote][b]photoart (2/7/2008)[/b][hr]Aurock,
No, no one will be picking and choosing. It is the system who will be picking and choosing. Hope this is clear.[/quote]

Yup, I understand what you're saying now but it still doesn't sound right to me :ermm:

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sea Belle — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:56:15 GMT

Wow photoart...
this sure isn't clear to me at all...is there somewhere in the forum or elsewhere where this is mentioned...how can we be banned from voting on particular members images...it sounds freaky to me!!! Still not understanding....

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:53:11 GMT

Well..I must say...

I never thought I was truly hated til now!!!

And by a computer program at that! LOL!

For the most part, I think I am a pretty fair voter.

Since when did all this start?

Now let me get this straight..If the person has other images , I no longer will be able to vote on them?

Hmmmm...Not sure that is a good thing...

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

aurock — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:50:06 GMT

[quote][b]Raincoaster (2/7/2008)[/b][hr][b]"it will be rejected solely because of the owner of the image."[i][u][/u][/i][/b]

HUH?? can you explain this further...how can the owner of the image have anything to do with rejecting the votes?[/quote]

This was exactly my reaction too ... HUH??!! :unsure: That would amount to picking & choosing whose votes we want & don't want to receive on our image ... Please say this isn't so! :w00t:

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:45:59 GMT

We can pick and choose our votes now? LOL!

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sea Belle — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:44:25 GMT

[b]"it will be rejected solely because of the owner of the image."[i][u][/u][/i][/b]

HUH?? can you explain this further...how can the owner of the image have anything to do with rejecting the votes?

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Petmagnet — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:37:07 GMT

I just voted on a few images..Most ranging from 6-9 in score.

I came across one, which I felt had multiple major issues. I therefore proceeded to give it a score I rarely use. The system posted an 'out of range' notice which also stated I may see this image in voting again. I left a quick comment of 'multiple distractions'.

Am I not understanding? I will give it the same vote if I see it again.

Was a more detailed comment suppose to be written, or has the system changed so that what I really feel is my own personal

voting pattern is now unexcepted if the site desires?

I did not vote this image lower than what I felt it deserved. It really had to many problems in my opinion.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

Sherry — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:25:42 GMT

This has never happened to me either.

My votes have always processed.

RE: Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

LAC — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 05:12:22 GMT

I've never had this happen...

Question about the "Out of Range" in voting

SkyBlueRose — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 00:00:00 GMT

When you are voting and get that warning is it talking about out of range for the image or for your own voting style? I have had a few times now where I tried to give an 8 and I get that message. Either way it doesn't make sense to me. If they are talking about the image, why isn't it consistent? Sometimes I vote the same amount out of the range of the image's average and it goes through fine but other times it gives you the message and I just waisted my time evaluating, commenting and voting on it. If they are talking about my voting style it makes no sense either because the last time it happen I had just given out a bunch of 8's right before the rejected vote.

Also I was wondering if anyone has a problem where you give a 6, 7, or 8 and it thinks you gave it a 4 or lower and gives the message about having to leave a comment. I know I'm getting older but my memory isn't that bad.

Linda R. C.